The perfect illustration of worst-case "overrun" scenario... a Mark V!
This is part of my tinkering with the "Alpha-Strike" issue in Ogre. While it is a great game and a classic, the move-shoot mechanic results in some situations that make no sense [withdrawing units never get to take a shot at pursuing enemy] and are unrealistic [the defense pretty much always gets a shot in before a maneuvering attacker]. But what to do about it?
First, I wanted to see if I could make it work as it is, and dig into the issues a bit.
Training setup below. The well-defended PanEuro CP is lodged behind a crater with 14 Armor Units plus Infantry. The attacking forces have 14 Armor Units and are in an attack formation that I figure may well become 'standard' for me. The key is the range/move combo, combining for total Threat Distance. So if Mv=2 and Range=4, then TD=6. The most vulnerable units in a an Alpha-Strike mechanic game are the ones out front. The question is always the counter-strike. So, if the enemy moves forward and hits us, are we at the correct TD to crush them back. Basically, it is a situation of a Forlorn Hope for the defense every time - you pretty much have to have some sacrificial units out front, sort of a combo "LP" [Listening Post] and Forward Guard. They will likely die.
Below, all Combine units have moved onto the map a full move. The GEVs haven't gone farther as they want to stay under the protective umbrella of the - slow but lethal - Mobile Howitzers. The PanEuro player has one Infantry Squad in cover to screen the front. Uncertain if that is a good idea with these mechanics except that GEVs can't just drive thru them.
And are very successful - infantry are wiped out!
While this attack worked, It is always hard for me to get my head around the Alpha-Strike mechanic. It is so counter-intuitive to modern warfare, that it almost makes no sense and negates a great game.
Generally speaking, modern warfare is so fast, and weapons so lethal, that:
- the shooting needs to be either simultaneous or
- something has to give advantage to the defender, old-school.
Hard to decide which - this needs more investigation!
The Ogre system is just a blast from the past! I'm heavily invested in it, but in my elder years I'm wondering about the Alpha-Strike. It's not realistic in modern war, and I don't see that changing in the future. The new 6th Ed. Over-run rules add some possibilities, so I'm going to investigate a balance between maneuver and fire by changing the turn sequence a bit.
Couldn't you just go with an interleaved turn sequence? A move, B fire. B move, A fire? It is over 40 years since I last played Ogre, so not sure if that will break anything!
ReplyDeleteHey Martin, yes, I've thought about several concepts like using the First Battle turn sequence, but keep coming back to the simplest ones, like reversing the phases from Move-Shoot to Shoot-Move. The simplest ones seem like they are most in the spirit of Ogre, to me. I'll put up some more on this soon.
DeleteI love Ogre/GEV, but the game mechanics are from a bygone era that don't map well onto warfare as we know it.
ReplyDeleteThe other thing that bugs me about this SJG game is the support and development.
The support (supplements and miniatures) are great when they're available, but SJG are not at heart a wargame company; or at least not from the perspective of what generates their income. They mostly sell card and counter games; Munchkin and GURPS (and the latter also suffers the same problem as Ogre/GEV).
I could go on, but I won't. I wish they'd done a proper miniatures based Ogre/GEV game, I wish they would do the game with finer granularity. But, wishes are wishes, and worth exactly what you paid for the.
Yes, I've pretty much come up with a solution I can live with for Ogre / GEV. Will be posting soon. RE: proper miniatures game... a lot of gamers are going to miniatures games on table but played on a grid - ergo, not much needed for the conversion, main issue would be hex size. The plastic miniatures are great far as I'm concerned, better than metal overall. Battlesuit plays fine as it is, but I had to write up a rules summary and QRS as it is a badly organized rule set. I actually really like it for modern combat as it balances tactical choices and lethality quite well in heavy terrain. I had to shorten the range penalties to give more maneuver on the map however. Will publish more on that soon.
ReplyDeleteWell, something to look forward to.
DeleteOgre/GEV is a simple game, so on the one hand it's not really going for "simulating" modern/future combat. on the other hand, I think your concern about the "Alpha Strike" possibilities is misplaced. tactically, in history the defender has usually had the advantage, although that advantage has relatively increased or decreased depending on the time period (WWI was a relative increase for example). the zone between the combine and paneuro forces, which is basically 2x move plus range, is analogous to no man's land between the trenches in WWI, but it equally applies to any more modern period. to move into the enemy's battle space is to make oneself vulnerable, and the move shoot mechanic is adequate for showing that overcoming the tactical disadvantage means exploiting other advantages such as superior range (+move), or concentrating overwhelming force in a more narrow strike sector. the fact that when each side is equal, neither really wants to attack, is actually a plus in my book in terms of realism.
ReplyDeleteHey Jim, thanks for the visit and thoughtful comment.
ReplyDeleteI think it's the opposite issue with Alpha Strike - the advantage is heavily weighted in terms of an attacker getting in the first shot. So your description is more of what I'm looking for - defender has terrain advantage and placement then has to deal with the concentration of force presented by the attacker. Defender usually gets some first shots in aside from preliminary bombardments [which are simulated with the cruise missile rules of Ogre/Shockwave].
I don't see any coming technological advances that will overcome firepower and maneuver is available to both sides. It just feels weird that in Ogre the best defense is actually to go on the offense.